Monday, January 21, 2008

A big THANK YOU to:

Mark, Renee, Abby, and JJ for leaving insightful comments that
have aided me in my blogging/thinking on Catholicism.

My search is really only just beginning and I'm really enjoying
this process presently. I would continue to appreciate any
insights or comments anyone wants to offer.

John and I are moving forward and talking a ton. I'll leave it
at that for now. : )

Next order of business (besides a full semester up and running):

Research Vatican II and Council of Trent.

Also: generally live out my Christian faith, and specifically, trust
that Jesus really is the light of the world (John 8:12).
Posted by at

4 comments:

Sandy said...

Lisa I have been reading your blog for awhile now. I enjoyed listening to some of your music on your my space page too. You know your Mom and I are really good friends and I have been praying for you all and this whole situation.
I must tell you that a few years ago I was flipping through cable channels and came across an interview on the Eternal Word network(catholic) with a man who was an evangelical and turned Catholic. He has written a book, so I checked it out at the library. I must say it was an amazing read. I had never before heard of an evangelical turning Catholic. His name is Stephen K. Ray and the book is called "Crossing the Tiber". He has a website http://www.catholic-convert.com/Default.aspx?tabid=100 you might find interesting as well. There is also a book by Elizabth Elliot's brother called "Evangelical is not enough" that may be helpful.

I don't know if there is a black and white answer to all this but I do know that we tend to put God in too small a box. I do believe that He is much broader then we fundamentalist tend to think. A book that helped me see this is called "A new kind of Christian" by Brian D. McLaren. Although this book has some absolute heresy in it, it also has some interesting things to think about.

Just some thoughts I had. I will continue to pray for God's guidance for you. One thing for sure if we ask for wisdom He gives it freely. Sandy Schindler

7:23 PM
Mark and Cristy said...

Some specific passages:

Regarding the Catholic church's tolerance for the doctrine of universal salvation:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” Matthew 25:46

Regarding the doctrine of the sinless virgin Mary:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

Regarding the forbidding of marriage: (note that Peter/Cephas-the original "Pope" was married)

"Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?" 1 Corinthians 9:5

Regarding the forbidding of marriage:

"But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth." 1 Timothy 4:1-3

Regarding the practice of witholding the communion cup:

"Drink from it, all of you" Matthew 26:27

"in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup." 1 Corinthians 11:28

Regarding Mary as a mediator:

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." 1 Timothy 2:5

Regarding the perpetual virginity of Mary:

"Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" Matthew 13:55-56

Regarding repetitious prayers (rosary/Hail Marys,etc.):

"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." Matthew 6:7

Regarding the use of the term "Father":

"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

Another interesting Catholic teaching is the teaching of Papal Infalibility, which states that the Pope can, at times, speak without the possibility of error on issues of doctrine and Biblical interpretation. Pope Pius XII did so in 1950 when he declared that Mary never died but was taken to heaven. Included in that statement was the following claim of absolute authority:

"Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

This question of authority is really the most significant source of Catholic/Protestant disagreement, in my opinion. It is understandable that well-meaning people will disagree on interpretation of some passages. However, it is the teaching that the Catholic church and the Pope have exclusive authority to determine doctrine and truth for you that I would never submit to.

And isn't that what you are submitting yourself to if you commit yourself to the leadership of a Catholic man?

By the way, I respect and admire you for your willingness to talk about this openly and entertain the opinions of a fundamentalist like me. If I was going through a time of searching for answers like you are, I'm sure my pride would cause me to keep it to myself.

-Mark

6:10 PM
jjspringer said...

Hi Lisa,
Glad to hear you're thinking hard about these things. I'm actually taking a Historical Theology class and I might be doing a paper on the Council of Trent, so I'd love to compare notes with you as time goes on.

And as Sandy (Hi Sandy!) noted there has been a trend toward evangelicals becoming Catholic in recent years, although I suspect that has as much to do with problems in evangelicalism as it does with the validity of Catholicism. And as far as Brian McLaren goes...I'd be pretty wary...his tendency to submit Christianity to postmodern assumptions is taking him to some weird places.

Thanks for asking about the kids...they're doing great although Decoteau and Amy are refusing to go to bed tonight. I wish there was an authority figure in my life telling me that I had to get more sleep.

JJ

11:50 PM
Lisa Bender said...

WOW and WOW!! Thank you SO MUCH Sandy, Mark and JJ for some great thoughts!

Sandy: I appreciate the thoughts. I really think there is a trend towards Catholicism, a trend which I think has some valid reasoning and valid points, but one which I am not completely comfortable with. It is something that is stimulating so much thought for me, and I don't see how that could be a bad thing. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions.

Mark: While some of those passages I have had extensive conversations with Catholics about and have come to an understanding about, at the very least, where they are coming from in their interpretations of them, still some of the things you bring up are to me very valid points.

I appreciate the reminder to seriously consider the words of Scripture. I need that.

I guess my quest in these matters isn't an issue of finding all that I DON'T agree with in Catholicism, but finding (and being surprised by) the things (I would argue, the foundational things) that I DO agree with them on. I have found these things mostly through my interactions and explanations from live Catholics.

I'm going to go ahead and not go into those things 'cause that would take too long, but they are things such as Commitment to Scriptures, to becoming like Christ, to loving God, to ministry, to reading of the Word publicly and privately and etc.

As far as putting myself under the authority of a Catholic, I guess my reasoning for considering this somewhat precarious position is that I have talked with John extensively about most of the verses and issues that have been brought up, and I have found that he is not a hard-core Catholic. I hope he won't mind me stating this so publicly, but he has his doubts on some of their doctrines, such as Mary's sinlessness and etc.

I know this is confusing. It has been to me. But somehow he manages to be Catholic (and I think a lot of American Catholics manage to do this) and still not agree with a lot of their more specific teachings. I don't think I could be comfortable with this, which is why I don't think I'll ever become Catholic myself, but I have been very compelled by the fact that God seems to be using this church in John's life and the lives of many he knows and that I have met.

We are still talking about all of this, but I just want to say that, I know how hard it must be to fathom this, but I really believe God is now using the Catholic church for good, even if it has not always been the case. I don't think they are the one true church, but I don't either think that God cannot use them for good in people's lives, just as he uses flawed Evangelical churches.

As far as which is more or less flawed, I think it depends on the specific church, because, I believe it is more a matter of the heart as God sees it, as I'm sure you do as well.

I am still very much thinking these things through. There is much I am still uncomfortable with in Catholicism. But for some reason I think God is wanting me to see that there is good as well.

JJ: I am reading "The Reformers and Their Stepchildren" by Verduin and "The Fathers of the Church" by Aquilina right now. One is anti-Catholic and one proports to be pro-Catholic. I am enjoying what I am learning, and I am hoping to stumble across stuff about those councils. But if I don't, maybe you can fill me in at some point.

God bless all of you. I appreciate all of the thoughts. Thank you for blessing me with your honest responses from your hearts.

2:31 PM

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